OuttaDeeBox Podcast

Thriving Against Odds in African-American Parenting with Eugene Crisler part 2

• Dee Star • Season 5 • Episode 6

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Navigating the challenges of fatherhood, especially within the African-American community, is a journey paved with obstacles and victories. On today's episode, we shed light on the Urban League of Greater Madison Fatherhood Group's commitment to supporting black fathers in overcoming systemic hurdles. I open up about my struggles with mental health and legal systems, adding a deeply personal perspective to the conversation. We also honor the transformative work of Sheriff Barrett in improving mental health services in correctional facilities, further exploring how policy and funding play a crucial role in father reentry programs.

The walls of a jail cell often contain untold stories, and our discussion doesn't shy away from the realities of incarceration. We peel back the layers to reveal the mental anguish suffered by many who are legally innocent, the societal pressures leading to high conviction rates, and the systemic undercurrents that hark back to darker chapters in our history. But it's not all grim; there's a glimmer of hope as we discuss strides toward reform, recognizing that change is necessary and possible.

Family is the cornerstone of society, and we devote a heartfelt segment to the significance of fatherhood and debunking myths about African-American paternal engagement. It's not just about being present; it's about understanding and navigating the complex web of family court systems and child support. We share resources, educate on parental rights, and stress the importance of co-parenting for children's mental and emotional development. This episode goes beyond talk; it's a resource for anyone looking to make sense of the family court maze and to reinforce the value of fatherhood.

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Speaker 1:

How do people get involved in this fatherhood group? Who do they call? Do they got an email Like how do they get involved? So generally, and then not to cut you off, but what is the demographic that you're looking for? You know black, white, what kind of people, what kind of circumstances. Take me through it.

Speaker 2:

Essentially what happens is we have a partnership with the county for Children's First, which they would get if you're paying child support or not paying child support. You go to court. They say, hey, you're in contempt, but we're going to put you, we're going to hold that contempt order off If you take this program, if you take this program, and so you guys are the program. The program is Children's First, and Children's First actually refers clients to me, ok, to the Urban League of Greater Madison Fatherhood Group, and then so they'll get that. But then there's people that call the Urban League saying, hey, I have this going on and a court says this or I don't know, but I heard that this happened. Eugene does this group and I want to get into it. So word of mouth, referrals and just walk-ins is generally how I get them. Mouth referrals and just walk-ins it's generally how I get them.

Speaker 2:

And typically the audience that are there black fathers, those who have been in the system. Majority of them have been in the system. I've had fathers who have worked and had a six-figure job salary and everything is going good, but all of a sudden they get divorced, wife takes the money and now they're on food stamps and now they're homeless. So it is a wide, wide range of individuals, but the common people are those who um have, who are subject to poverty, is what I would say. They're subject to poverty and um don't have a job or, you know, have some AOD, so they call it A-O-D-A requirements and I try to, just, in that space, build them up, and you're one of the best people to do that, because you have a lot of lived experience yourself.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

With mental health issues run-ins with the law.

Speaker 2:

Right, yes exactly.

Speaker 1:

So I was just reading some of the information that you sent me earlier and I seen that you got shot at the radio station. You are on suicide watch at the Dane County Jail and I know that they're working towards bettering conditions there and I don't want to slam them because you know they can only do so much. But I was asked this question. We know what the DLC is doing wrong. What?

Speaker 2:

do you feel like the DLC is doing right? A couple of months ago they came out National National Criminal Justice Center of Oshkosh Fox Valley area, came out with assessment, with reentry to fatherhood, and they understand that if fathers don't get that support, there's just there's going to be issues for them to be able to help their children out right. So they know that there's a need to have a re-entry program for fathers non-custodial parents as well to be able to do that. So I would say that is one thing that I've seen that the DLC has done, but I also know that it's a hard challenge to be able to so it's a lot of bureaucracy.

Speaker 2:

Right, exactly, it's a lot of red tape.

Speaker 1:

It's a lot of things that they have to fight through because it's not like everybody in the DOC wants it to be a certain way, you know. But it all really comes down to funding who's in office at the time and you what's going on, you know, as far as budgeting and things like that. So, yeah, I just want to get your take on that from somebody who's actually had lived in, lived experience, going through the system and seeing these things firsthand.

Speaker 2:

You know the conditions of the dane county jail, um, the old jail, you know know, yeah, and shout out to you know, sheriff Barrett, because you know he came into as a sheriff, you know dealing with a lot of stuff, and I've sat there and spoke with him and you know he was battling a lot to try to get the new jail up.

Speaker 2:

So I want to just really raise it up because he, as a black man, black father, black sheriff, in a town, a city that we live in, he's overcame some barriers. So I just wanted to shout that out and he has been in a fight for years to try to get this new jail and I'm glad that is happening now and I've seen the blueprints of it and I've seen the blueprints of it and I've said this If the quality of the staff, if the staff can be just as great as what this building, looks like as a facility, then we're on point and he took that and he understood, understood that and he raised that issue up and he ended up bringing a new service providers in for mental health and they look like us, wow.

Speaker 2:

So I really think that we do have to also understand that people who are in service, wherever they're in the police department or anything like that there are people there that are actually trying to help. So I think that's important to highlight that, instead of all this negative crap that we've been seeing, that we hear in mainstream media and all this Like in our city, there are people there in the spaces that we put in spaces to be able to change the narrative and the trajectory that we need to go to be able to change the narrative and the trajectory that we need to go?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I don't want to. You know, people look at a city like ours and they say, oh, it's very progressive and it's very, you know, left wing and things of that nature and it looks like we're being very lenient on crime. But what people got to really understand is we're talking about the jail. We're not talking about the prison right now. We're talking about the jail and 80 percent of the people that's in jail right now. We at least have to treat them like they're innocent. You know what I mean Like they are human beings. You know what I mean, and they need access to sunlight and exercise and you know food. You know what I mean. And then don't charge them, you know, hundreds of dollars a week to get on the phone and things like that. So it's like these are innocent people by every stretch.

Speaker 2:

According, to the constitutional law. They're still innocent.

Speaker 1:

They're still innocent until proven guilty. So if they haven't been convicted of a crime, these are innocent people, so we can't treat them like they're still innocent.

Speaker 2:

they're still innocent until proven guilty, so they, if they haven't been convicted of a crime, um, these are innocent people, so we can't treat them like they're criminals so check this metaphor out we live in poverty, right, and we make decisions on based on our, our situation in property, right, right, sometimes we may have to make a decision so that we can put food on the table and then, all of a sudden, we go to jail because we had to get some food, right? Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes people make these decisions based off of three things fear, scarcity and lack.

Speaker 2:

Correct. And so just think about that scenario and you put it in a place like the Dane County Jail and what it looks like right now. And innocent people are in there, but yet their mental we're going to go back to mental health their environment, the people that are around and the things that they have to eat does not help the fact that they're fighting for their life and they're innocent, but yet we have these cases that get prolonged and all this this now becomes a psychological thing.

Speaker 2:

And so what ends up happening. More people get convicted, and that's why Wisconsin is a 97% conviction rate.

Speaker 1:

Because they just want to get out of there.

Speaker 2:

They just want to get out of there.

Speaker 1:

All right, whatever, I'll take the probation. Or, okay, a year. All right, just give me the year. I'm sick of it because I don't get this time back. I I'm sick of because I don't get this time back. I get it, quote unquote, credited, but I don't get the time back. You know what I'm saying. So I go through this whole process, I get found not guilty, they let me out, they, you know, expunged my record, all of this. But that two, three years, that I sat in there fighting this case.

Speaker 1:

I'd never get that back. Now I have to completely rebuild my whole life. It only takes two weeks. I'm going to tell you that right now. You get locked up for two weeks you're going to have to rebuild everything.

Speaker 2:

Everything's gone. I actually wrote something that I was actually incarcerated at the time on a probation hold and I wrote something and it talked about Willie Lynch and Jim Crowism and how that is actually prevalent till this day and we even use it, without even knowing that we use it right, because it's been projected, it's been instilled in our it's, in the constitution exactly.

Speaker 1:

you know they abolish slavery except when one commits a crime yeah, until you, until you become a felon, like if you're locked up then then you know slavery. You can be an indenture servant.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, exactly, and so that's why I'm happy that you know Sheriff Barrett actually kept fighting and kept going and some years down the road, but like now, we got, we got the ball rolling. So that's going to be good for for our city, for our people, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, looking forward, what changes or initiatives would you like to see within communities to better support the mental health and well-being of African-American children and families?

Speaker 2:

You know I'm going to go back to talking about fatherhood parenting role, right, I think we need. When we talk about mental health and children, we split the families up. Mom and dad might not be having a good situation when the relationship they break apart. Now we know that this happens. Where mom and dad were arguing, now children are involved. I really feel like we need to be progressive on talking about what parental equity looks like, because then both parents can see that we got to fight for our children in a great, in a good way, fighting fair, right, understanding what that looks like. So more advocacy around. You know, parental equity and parental rights, especially. You know and build up fathers Right, because we have this. We have this stigma about there's fathers that want to be deadbeats, but that's not true. You know the numbers don't support that. The numbers doesn't support that. In fact, I've gone in different groups and seen how there's a lot of fathers that are angry but they don't know how to actually use that in the right platforms.

Speaker 1:

Blackdemographiccom, cdccom, says that black men are the most active fathers of all races. That is a fact. So when people say deadbeat dads, black men are not in the household, they're not good fathers. That's why I say the numbers just don't support that. The statistics, the data, all of that does not support that and it's like we continue to let people push that narrative and I just think it does more harm than good, especially when it comes from our own people.

Speaker 1:

Exactly Saying oh, you know he's a deadbeat this and that, but sometimes it's not because they want to be, not be like in the kid's life, it's circumstantial you know, yes, yes it's like man I just got out, or man I don't even have enough money right now to take care of my basic needs.

Speaker 2:

So or I can't give you some yeah, probation or parole.

Speaker 1:

It's like I can't you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip or child support right it's like so all I have right now is time, like I can give my time. I can't really give the financial piece right now, but and that's important time. Time is what's important, and then you so, but it's like okay well, since you can't support the, the financial piece, we're gonna take the time away, we're gonna lock you up because you can't support the financial piece, which is crazy cycle, you know what I'm saying, it's like you're saying, okay, you want me to be in the kid's life and support the child, but it's more than just financial supporting the kid, it's everything.

Speaker 2:

See, and that's the thing that goes back to mental health, and they always talk about what's in the best interest of the child. Well, in the best interest of the child is making sure that their mental health is right, because that's how they operate. We all operate on our lived experience, our traumas, what we learned, and so how does that have anything to do with what's beneficial for the children? Now, my own personal story about, you know, dealing with child support and divorce, and you know the court system, family court. I'll just put it plain and simple.

Speaker 2:

Now, none of my children's parents do not actually I'm not on child support for any of them because we figured and realized that it is important that our children have both of us and they don't have to be um, have that recourse or that um, that um being able to have to deal with that situation.

Speaker 2:

Because, whether they don't see, whether they see it or not, they feel the fact that we are not actually vibing right, we are not on the same page, because the energy that they feel between the transference from okay, you got the kids this week and I got the kids that week in these conversations, and because, also, what ends up happening is it starts to become a reactional thing for the children. They're getting in trouble in school, they're saying things like this or doing things like that. It's just out of character. Well, think of what they're going through in their life, not particularly what they are doing, but what is going on in their life around them, and that is important. So we have a better chance being successful for our children when we stop having systems control us and tell us how we are supposed to have our children overnight or have what?

Speaker 2:

custody stuff like that. I get it. There are people that need that, but that's for people that need it. You can't generalize that, because once you start generalizing that, then there's a systemic issue, a systemic inequity, where, while you're in here, this system is for these who don't want to take care of their children, who don't have a job. But you're talking about someone who sat in prison for maybe 10, 20 years and they have all this child support and now you're telling them that they're going to be potentially going back to jail because they owe all this money that you kept accumulating. It doesn't make sense. We're creating a cycle of poverty. That's what we're doing in systems that we're supposed to be trusted in. I hope that makes sense.

Speaker 1:

It does make sense.

Speaker 1:

But one thing that I do appreciate on what the family court services is doing now is that before you go to mediation, they actually make you take this class and it actually gives you a lot of information about what the mediation is actually for, what are some of the legal ramifications of this whole process, and they just give you a lot more information about what the roles and responsibilities are for you as a parent, and so it kind of breaks down some of those misconceptions of what the roles and responsibilities are, because a lot of times we come into these situations and we don't know, because we're not lawyers, right?

Speaker 1:

So you just going off of what you heard or what you thought, or you know experiences from other people, and so you're like, oh man, I'm not going to be able to see my kids, or I'm not going to be able to do this and that and that and this, and it's like, no, you guys are both parents you guys are both entitled to this, as long as you know they're not in any danger it's split down the middle and all you have to do is ask for it right, and it's like.

Speaker 1:

Ignorance of the law is no defense.

Speaker 2:

No, when you're going through these situations, the best way to protect yourself is with information and knowledge and and I've been through that process and I'll tell you more too, because we do have a clinic that we do it's called the Family Service Clinic that we have child support agency, and then the Family Law Clinic come in Also. We have Lift Wisconsin that comes in, and we have this monthly get-together at the Urban League and we have people who have signed up to talk to child support and try to work with them, and all you got to do is communicate All you got to do is communicate.

Speaker 1:

So let me ask you this, because I think this is very, very, very important what are some of the biggest things that you've learned? What are some of the biggest misconceptions that fathers come in or mothers come in thinking that, oh, I can't do this or I'm going to have to do this, or they're going to take half of my check? Or what are some of the biggest misconceptions that you think that people can help people?

Speaker 2:

I'm glad that you asked that, because I can think of two, and it might be a third one after I say the two. One whenever you go in court for the first time, you're not seeing a judge, you're seeing a commissioner. If you do not like what that commissioner has said, you have to put in a de novo which is free to file, but you only have a certain amount of days. It's 20 days, but I'm going to say 10 days. So then you don't wait that last day to file that de novo, and then you'll go right up to the judge, right, and so that's one thing. And don't miss your court date, don't miss those. Don't don't miss those court dates. And don't miss the mediation dates. Do not miss the mediation dates. And on top of that, they will tell you while they're explaining to you this informational session, when you're going through this mediation.

Speaker 2:

Hey, before you go, before you go into the mediation, they say this is the process and the thing that you want to hear is the words. Words have meaning. They say collateral information. They're going to go and meet anybody and everybody that you speak about or has been around you, and they're going to get information and it's called collateral information, and that means that they're going to see who is going to be best fit to handle or decision for their child, your child. That's one Two. What was the second one?

Speaker 2:

That was a major one, though, that's major that's major Making sure that you go to court.

Speaker 1:

There's a commissioner and you will have to pay a fee for the class, but if you fall in a certain tax bracket you might be eligible for a waiver.

Speaker 2:

And then there's a $50 a month when you're dealing with guard them and light them. Depending on your financial situation.

Speaker 1:

But I mean, I just think it's so important because a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about what that process looks like. And I did a whole show on family court and child support, from both aspects. I had a group of men and I had a group of women and surprisingly, they were saying the same exact thing we don't want child support. We don't want child support, we don't, we would rather have the father or we would rather have the relationship with the father or with the mother. Because I would be able to do more than you put me on child support. Because we're life, right. I mean, we're not like, we're human beings, right, we're adults and the economy fluctuates up and down and you just regular life man.

Speaker 1:

Some days I got it, some days I don't. Right. You know, some months something might pop up. You know what I'm saying. My water heater might go out and I might need to fix that. You know, things happen, life will life. You sometimes right, right, so I might not have three, four hundred dollars to give you this month. So right, right, but I might have four, five hundred dollars to give you next month. Right, but I might have $400 or $500 to give you next month.

Speaker 2:

So I'm glad that you brought that, because it brought back the second thing I was going to say. You don't need to put so when they say, hey, you need to pay this much a month at this time every week, sometimes you might not have it. Like you said, as long as you're paying something, it can be $2, it can be $5. As long as you're paying something, that's all that matters, because they can't say that you have not been paying.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And that's what I've seen a lot of people have done. Like I went into the job center the other day, on Wednesday, and I go once a month to talk to Children's First participants and I said, look, we got to be accountable. If you don't have a job I know you can get $5 because some of you smoke cigarettes Right, just take that $5 and send it there. If you don't got a job, then they'll get off your back.

Speaker 1:

You won't go to jail because it has to be like 100 and something days since the last time you made a payment, right? So if you make a $2 payment, you can never get locked up.

Speaker 2:

You see people come into jail and then they leave and they come back and you're still waiting and you're like how the heck does this person keep coming back and leaving and I'm still here?

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm giving you the same information every single time every single time that could have stopped you from going.

Speaker 2:

Exactly so. That's also why I say like there's all. There's so many different angles to this right, it's not just a one-sided thing, it's like. This is why this has happened. This is why systems are in place. Because of these things that happen now, we have people that are in systems that now, because they're only human they might not have mistakes or they have a bad day and then all of a sudden you're dealing with it.

Speaker 2:

So it's. We just got to make sure that, as parents, we're accountable for helping our children navigate their mental health, as well as having us our own selves be able to have that self-care that time, to be able to have that self-care right and that time to be able to communicate, like I communicate with all my children's mothers, because it's important to me that all our children have that support from both parents and being able to understand where they both come from. Because I know when I was younger I didn't have my father in my life. I always had this question where the heck do I come from? Who?

Speaker 1:

am I.

Speaker 2:

Why do I feel this way? Why do I act this way? And when I don't have a answer, you might get angry. You get angry, frustrated, get frustrated. And then you might say or do, and do, say or do the wrong thing, and it's just 10, 10 percent of a decision making is your decision making and that that time, that one, that that one time out of 10 percent, changes your whole life. Yeah, it changed your whole life. So that's why, like I'm always mentally checking right I'm making, I'm having a mental check on how am I feeling? Why am I feeling this? Why is this person saying I might even think too much? And I got to tell myself well, you're thinking too much, that's okay, because you're not going to be able to have all the answers to questions and answers to everything, but as long as you're asking those questions, the Most High is going to give them to you because you've asked it. Mary, they say don't ask.

Speaker 1:

Don't ask questions that you don't want the answers to.

Speaker 2:

Right, because if you say god can, or you ask, can you give me patience? Oh, how are you going most high? Gonna give you patience in a way that you didn't expect, and so that's that's how we have to understand and live and navigate our life. Man is to make sure that god has always taught us, even in the scriptures if you want to go biblical, any scripture. It talks about how you're supposed to be there as a parent for your children so that they can honor you. How can your children honor you if you don't put any ownership into them, if you don't build that into them right, you don't guide them right? They don't understand that.

Speaker 2:

And then people think honor or loyalty is's something different. You know, they, they, they rationalize that differently, but it all starts at the home. It all starts with the mother and father. That's why they say the the children is only as perfect as a parent, because it starts in the home. So mental health has to be like, rooted and and talked about in the home, so that they can understand when they go out into the world. Everyone else has their own different view of what mental health is, until they come in a room with everyone who has these learned behaviors or these, uh, what they call trauma-informed care lessons, then they understand that everyone's mental traumas are different, but we all handle them somewhat similar. It's just the way that they handle it, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1:

It does. So what's next for you, man?

Speaker 2:

I'll be doing a parental program in martial arts, so it's like a challenge program from parents and children and we'll be doing it over at capital city bjj.

Speaker 2:

A promotion from uh children's fighting championship that we're going to be doing, um, bringing children and mom and dad in to do programming, uh, martial arts, being able to work with each other, learn how to actually use the pads, learn how to be partners and have this open, this communication style for them to be able to learn to communicate and be able to break the ice Right. Like I said, I'm an advocate for having the door open for my children to talk about whatever they need to talk about, so that I can help navigate that. And then I'm open for them to teach me. My three year old, my four year old daughter, teaches me, so I'm open to that. Now she's in wrestling, so you know, just giving them those spaces. So that's what's next for me is just being able to be in their life as a coach, as a father, but also give this um, what I have to offer to the community and if people want to get involved with the fatherhood program, how do they do that?

Speaker 2:

so can go, and you can email me at echrisler E-C-R-I-S-L-E-R at ulgmorg. Or you can go to ulgmorg website that's the Urban League of Greater Madison website and you can go and fill out a membership application. Or you can just call up to the Urban League and just ask for me and they'll reach out.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely Well, eugene. I really appreciate you stopping by and coming on the podcast.

Speaker 2:

I really appreciate you having me and, man, I've been seeing a lot of your work and being here and seeing the things that you have here. I didn't know that you cooked and do all that, and so it's like getting to know you. I appreciate you bringing me into here and I can get to know you even more, so I hope that we can be able to do some more work together too.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. Me too. I'm D-Star Until next time, guys.

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