OuttaDeeBox Podcast
OuttaDeeBox podcast is a pre-recorded bi weekly show geared towards supporting former and current inmates and their families in Wisconsin. Our mission is to inform listeners about community resources that can assist them in securing employment opportunities, housing, mental health and substance abuse support, with the goal of reducing recidivism in Wisconsin. We also give listeners and guests the opportunity to share their unique inspirational stories through spoken word and other forms of musical artistry.
OuttaDeeBox Podcast
Rediscovering Joy in Childbirth: Insights from Influential Doula Uchenna Jones
What does it mean to bring joy back to childbirth? Join us for an illuminating conversation with Uchenna Jones, recognized as one of Wisconsin's 51 most influential leaders of 2023. Uchenna's journey from aspiring doctor to accomplished doula and upcoming midwife is inspiring. With roots deeply embedded in her Nigerian heritage and bolstered by her extensive experience in healthcare, Uchenna discusses the vital role of doulas in labor support, particularly in combating the historical mistreatment of Black women in obstetrics. She passionately advocates for birth as a joyous and sacred rite of passage.
Delve into the harrowing realities faced by birthing individuals, including those shackled in prisons, and the emotional and physical trauma they endure. We discuss the importance of freedom of movement during labor and the detrimental impact of restrictive practices. Through powerful stories, including the births of Tupac and Minister Eugene Smalls, Uchena highlights the profound effect on both mother and child. She emphasizes empowering birthing people to trust their instincts and the transformative role of doulas and nurses in creating positive birth experiences. Personal anecdotes reveal the deep emotional transformations that birth can bring, not just for mothers but for fathers, too.
Uchenna shares her spiritual journey through 22 years of doula work, from the emotional strength of mothers during labor to her transition into nursing, driven by a desire to blend holistic care with medical expertise. As a Black woman in the doula profession, she navigates unique challenges and leverages her Nigerian heritage to enrich her practice. The episode wraps up with a focus on personalized prenatal care and the essential involvement of birth partners, ensuring every birthing experience is supported and joyous. This is a must-listen for anyone interested in the transformative power of birth and the crucial role of compassionate care.
What's up everybody. This is your host D-Star here with Uchena Jones. Uchena Jones, the 2023.
Speaker 2:51 most influential leaders in Wisconsin Say that twice Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you, D-Star.
Speaker 1:So for the people that don't know you, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2:My name again, uchena Jones. I am the daughter of two Nigerian parents. I am a college graduate from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, I'm also a nurse, I'm also an author, I'm also a doula and I'm currently in the process of being a midwife. And, last but not least, I work at United Way of Dane County as the Community Impact Director of Health.
Speaker 1:And a mother.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:I'm a wife.
Speaker 2:A wife, wife, mother of three babies.
Speaker 1:And a community leader.
Speaker 2:Yes, all that stuff, you know it's so hard to keep up, it's so hard to keep up. So please, you know, bear with me guys.
Speaker 1:So what inspired you to become a doula and how did your journey lead you to this profession?
Speaker 2:My journey started. This year We'll make 22 years of providing active doula support to expectant mothers, birthing people in Madison, dane County community and it's been a joy. And how it started it started with I've always wanted to be in healthcare. Wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to be and looking at the different professions and kind of inspired by Bill Cosby you know he was an OBGYN obstetrician delivering babies and I'm like that's a dope job. I would love to deliver babies. Never thought in my wildest dreams that nothing bad could actually happen with having babies.
Speaker 2:So what did I do? I'm looking, I'm researching. I learned about midwives, I learned about nurses, but I really at the time wanted to be a doctor. Then, as I go to school and you're looking at those grades and you're like, okay, all right, I'm not getting A's in every class now, so what are other opportunities to still get in that space? So I ended up getting my first degree and realized that I had to you know, work hard, get the GPA up. So I was inquiring about maybe what about midwifery school? You know that's also another beautiful field I didn't look into.
Speaker 2:I was always tracked on being a doctor and what ended up happening is I found a woman in Florida can't even remember her name. I was like, hmm, if I talk to her I need to figure out how she got those letters, because it said that she was like a direct entry. So she did an apprenticeship style, became a midwife. But she was also a certified nurse midwife, which is pretty much having after your nursing degree you go back to school and then you get a master's degree in midwifery. But I'm like she got both, so I unfortunately didn't get her, I got her secretary and her secretary was in the process of getting certified as a doula.
Speaker 2:So when I was talking to her sharing my interests, and she said before you even think you could call yourself going into medicine, you need to watch women labor. And I'm like, ok, how do I do that and I'm just only got my undergrad she said you need to watch women birth, you need to become a doula. So a stranger in Florida ignited my journey.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what exactly is a doula?
Speaker 2:So a doula is a support person and not just a support person I mean cause it just makes it so mundane but it's a labor support person. It could be a man or a woman that is in the birthing space to provide support for that expected mother, for that birthing person, help them navigate through their pregnancy, through labor and through postpartum to have a beautiful, great birthing experience but also kind of enter into parenthood in a way that I think I believe all individuals who want to expand their family should enter in. In the past, the role in which nurses had was, like, really critical. Like in some ways they were like the original doulas, but with added healthcare systems, responsibilities, all these different things. Nurses no longer stayed with the birthing person. Instead they're doing a lot of administrative stuff. So this whole profession was birthed out of a lack.
Speaker 2:But in other indigenous cultures, in African cultures, if you look at older countries, there's always that older, senior mom or the midwife in the community that held that space that ushered in all these new babies into the world. This is where birthing people went to go get their care, all these different things, and even in some respects around the world it still happened, but in the United States it's more medicalized, most babies are born in the hospital, so we're losing those connections. So doulas kind of like were birthed out of that lack and you know, hold that sacred space, kind of piecing all those things together.
Speaker 1:So, as a doula, what unique perspectives or insights do you bring to the birthing process, particularly as a female black doula?
Speaker 2:One of the things that I desire as being a doula is bringing joy back to birth.
Speaker 2:If you look at the history, if you do the research, if you take the time to find out how family practice came about, how obstetric gynecology came about in some respects it was the mistreatment of black women, black slaves, and they medicalize birth in such a way that it's a disease rather than a process, rather than a rite of passage, rather than.
Speaker 2:This is how the next generation comes forward and we should be excited. And the perspective that I want to bring back is it's a beautiful thing, it's a joyous thing to see what the next generation looks like and, particularly for that birthing person's family, it is something to be celebrated, not to feel shame for. Now, grant, not everybody's birth story is good, so I don't want to paint this picture like every birth, every baby being born is just beautiful, but understanding the magnitude of that child coming in and how we need to prepare and usher and handle that birth person and their support person and their family with such grace, being able to lean in and give them the support they need so that, as they transition into parenthood on Earth's side, that they can handle what comes their way, as they're raising that child.
Speaker 1:It's very interesting that I just learned that women in prison were being shackled while they were giving birth here in Wisconsin and I just I couldn't even imagine what they went through or how they felt, because when I was with my wife, when she was having a baby, she was up, she was walking, she was so, you know, uncomfortable, just trying to get comfortable. You need to be able to move around, you need to be able to. You need to be able to move, because that's the part of the process, right? You?
Speaker 1:need to like get up, walk around and things like that. And then some you know you might be comfortable in this position but in two seconds you might need to switch it because the baby's moving and things like that. So for you to be shackled is just like that's just against everything.
Speaker 2:What people don't understand is okay. You just acknowledged that birthing people have to move right, because the baby's actually telling mom, I need you to move because I'm not comfortable. And guess what? They're not comfortable. So denying a birthing person the right to birth the way they need to, it's almost like you're setting that child up for failure right from the jump.
Speaker 1:A lot of trauma for both of them.
Speaker 2:And it's being transferred in real time. All the hormones is being released the anxiety, the anxiousness, pain, the shame. That's a direct transfer to the generation that's being birthed in a little while.
Speaker 1:Tupac was born in prison. Wow, I didn't know that I had another gentleman that was here. His name was Eugene Smalls. Wow, and he was a minister. Excuse me, Minister, eugene Smalls, he was born in prison.
Speaker 2:Did he ever get to talk about the impact?
Speaker 1:Yeah, he talked about it. I don't think that ever leaves you just knowing that information. Like man, I was born in a hospital in prison. I wasn't born in a hospital, I was born in an infirmary inside of a in prison. I wasn't born in a hospital, I was born in an infirmary inside of a state prison. I was like wow, and then he ended up going to prison. So it was like you know, it's like the cycle. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And in order for us to break it, we really got to pay attention to the origin right and making sure that birthing people are handled with such care that mothers get to be heard and we get to support them on their terms. Not what the doctor says, not what the nurse says, not even what the doula suggests, but internally I strongly believe that birthing people mothers they know instinctively what it is that they need and our job is to empower them to use their voice. That is where they get the foundation of parenting. They carried that child for almost nine, 10 months, 40 weeks, and now the world is going to tell them how they ought to raise their child? I don't think so, but we robbed them of that opportunity to be heard, to advocate for their child. So my job is to bring joy back, to let them know, to trust themselves, and my job is to just cheer you on to the finish line. You know I like to see myself as a guardian of birth. I didn't realize that, you know, and I'm unapologetic about it.
Speaker 2:And it's a joyful time, it's an exciting time to see what the new generation is not only coming forth with, but what do they look like? Whose personalities Are they reaching out back to grandma, you know, so-and-so, or auntie so-and-so, or great-great you know, and the stories that will come forth? What is the information and their knowledge that they're coming with, that they're about to share with us? A lot of people you know, even like in child psychology and child development, even like in child psychology and child development. You know there's this whole thing about nature versus nurture. What is so dope is these beings. They know things. They know things and if we slow ourselves down, we get to know what they know, if we learn how they communicate. And it's just such an amazing thing to see. And I've been learning that and tracking that, in not even realizing it, over these 22 years.
Speaker 1:The impact that it has on the father, also during the birthing process. I was just talking to someone earlier today and we were kind of swapping stories about birth stories which is crazy because men usually don't do that. But we were talking about men's mental health, the toll that it takes on a man, and he said I had a doula and my doula let me sleep.
Speaker 1:I was like my doula, let me sleep too he was like I don't know what I would have did without her, like she was great and just a great experience. And he's had a couple of kids but he was like this last one he had. It was with the doula and it was just. It was a totally different experience. Can you share any memorable experiences or stories from your work as a doula that deeply impacted you?
Speaker 2:I got to start off with my first birth, and that was again.
Speaker 1:You've actually helped deliver over a thousand babies, you said.
Speaker 2:Yes, in my 22 years. So what makes it even easier to do is when you become a nurse. So I became a nurse seven years after being a doula and I felt like I needed more knowledge. I needed more knowledge because it was very interesting the dynamics that were playing in the room and there was times that I was mistreated in the presence of my client and I really felt like there was a knowledge gap. Also, I wasn't I never had any children at that time, you know. So I be.
Speaker 2:I did my doula training in 2002. I didn't get married till 2012. So you can see, there's a 10-year gap where I am just literally what I read and then taking care of birthing people and putting all those pieces together. But something shifted when I became pregnant and I just started to go back and I'm like, oh my gosh, I should not have said that. I should have done this differently, and I realized that that was an experience, that was something that I needed to strengthen my practice. But before that moment I felt like I needed to become a nurse to know more, because some of the things that I would do or some of the things I would say, the nurse will minimize it or it will be like a competition. So I said you know what? Let me find out what the other side is thinking of.
Speaker 1:I've seen that firsthand in the hospital. It's like they're respected but not respected. But you know, it's like this weird thing. The nurses feel like what they're saying has to take precedent over the doula, but then the doula is like no, I've been with them since day one. I know her, I know way more and from you're reading it from a chart, I'm doing this off of experience. You know, and I've delivered more babies than you Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly, but I do my best to recognize and understand and this is the part that I learned as a nurse is that we're a team and we're all here to help this birthing person have an amazing experience, this mother to have an amazing experience with her support person and all that stuff. Now, I can't guarantee that the outcome will be exactly what they want, but I can guarantee that they will feel the support and love and encouragement that I know I can do and whatever information I can pass along to make sure they can make an informed decision. That is what I'm going to do, you know, and I'm going to advocate like crazy to make sure that their voice is being heard, because a lot of times you know when you are in that space you're helping mothers have babies all day long. You already have a formed idea of how this process is going to go.
Speaker 1:Right and you forget that everybody is different.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Every family is different. It's the same situation A baby's going to be born, but we don't know all the details.
Speaker 1:And a kid never know.
Speaker 2:Exactly. So I started to adopt this idea of you know what, if this is their first birth, it's going to be my first birth too. If this is their second, it's my second. I'm going to adjust, but I know that I'm an empty vessel. So when I come into that sacred space, all my issues, what I think about anything, is at the door. I am of service to my client. I'm of service to the patient. I am of service to my client. I'm of service to the patient and my job is to empower them with whatever that they think they need to get to the finish line, and that is to meet the new generation, to meet their baby.
Speaker 2:The thing that blows my mind that we don't talk enough about is that birth is spiritual. Or when does flesh wrap itself around spirit, around a soul, you know? And if we understand the magnitude of that, maybe we will handle the person who? And people think oh yes, the center of the universe is outside of us. I discovered in my 22 years the center of the universe is within that mom, it's within that birthing person and it has to pass through them, pass through her, so that we can meet. This is no stork dropping a baby out the sky. It's passing through a whole nother human being who's still living. We have to really sit with that. How are we going to handle, if we don't handle? The mom, well. The birthing person, well, what's happening to that child? Have to really sit with that.
Speaker 1:How are we going to handle if we don't handle?
Speaker 2:the mom, well. The birthing person, well, what's happening to that child? So your first birth? Yes, so my first birth, thank you. 22 years ago, because it was actually in January, I was a brand new nurse. I read all the things. I'm ready, I'm ready 27 hours Wow. Of continuous care, 27 hours. We had a false start actually.
Speaker 1:So you were a nurse at this time.
Speaker 2:No. Oh, you were a doula, a doula. I didn't become a nurse until 2009.
Speaker 1:I know a nurse will switch shifts.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But a doula, well, a one will stay until yes or get some relief. Three days they'll stay there with you?
Speaker 2:yes, that was that. I was that doula of yesterday, you know, providing that continuous support and it was good to do, because I didn't have no boyfriend. I had no husband, I had no kids. Um, as I progressed then I had to. But what was so interesting about that first birth, even with everything that I read, even what I was trying to do, I was having serious issues with the nurse. The nurse will say, well, it's not that hard, it's not that hard, it shouldn't hurt that much.
Speaker 1:Well then, if it's hurting that much, then maybe that's a sign that something's wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or ask her the right questions, like where does it hurt? How can I help you, really? And I was watching the way she would interact. And when she was gone, I asked my client like, how do you feel? She couldn't articulate that she was having issues with the nurse, but you could tell that she was feeling she had low self-esteem, she was feeling defeated, she doesn't, she didn't feel like she was progressing. And I'm like, yes, you are. You just got to give your body permission to allow itself to open up and it's going to take time. This is your first time. So, mind you, no baby, no experience for me as a mom, but I'm going based on what I read and when, at some point during that labor, she mustered up some courage and strength, she went through all the different phases you go through where you feel like, okay, I got this because the pain is not that bad. Then the pain gets really bad. But I was so proud of her. She didn't get an epidural even though the pressure was on 27 hours.
Speaker 2:But no epidural. She did the tub. We tried different positions and then every time they checked her, she made progress, she made progress and now it's time to push. And when baby Sophia came, oh my gosh, I was like I can do this, I can do this.
Speaker 1:Everybody cries.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, everybody cried, but I didn't cry when the baby came. I cried when, in the mother's most vulnerable state, she looked at her partner and she said, no matter what, even if it means I die, having your baby like she had no regrets. That had me tearing up like crazy and he's like you're not going to die, it's going to be okay. But I don't know if he really felt that, but he gave her what she needed.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And now they're celebrating. Baby Sophia is here, the next generation is here, and I am like, how can this not be something you want to do all the time? And I'm like trying to figure out how do I keep coming back to the space and place you know? So then I made it my mission. Okay, all right, let me figure out how I can get more clients, let me see who I can help. Let me put the word out there, you know, but again, internet wasn't what it was. Then I didn't have no website. I didn't know about having a business, but it was word of mouth that I started to.
Speaker 2:For the most part in the early years I did a lot of college students, you know, different backgrounds, different races, it didn't matter. I just needed to be in that space to learn what I needed to learn. I needed to pay attention to the dynamics and then, when I started to build my confidence, I said I need more knowledge. So then I went back to school and became a nurse because I needed to know what they knew and didn't realize that I'm a unicorn. There's a lot of doulas who are doulas. There are nurses who become doulas, but it's not quite common to be a doula and go on to be a nurse. Even as a nurse I didn't do things like my colleagues because I had a doula brain, I had a doula heart about work. I didn't use medications like everybody did. It's there. But because I saw birth, I understood the physiological process of birth and that it takes time. I fought for that, I advocated for that. Whether they were my patient or my client, same care.
Speaker 1:So what are some of the challenges you face as a black woman in the doula profession and how have you overcome them?
Speaker 2:I don't know if I overcome them, but I have learned to work with them. Some of the challenges is just the fact that I'm black. A lot of people who may know me. I'm 6'1", so when I walk in the room it's like who is she? What is she about to do? I always have to have myself mentally ready and prepared. Mentally ready, prepared to be undermined, disrespected. I don't know how many times I came into the birthing space and say I'm the doula and they say, oh, that's the patient's sister. Or if I find them doing something that I don't agree with because, guess what, I'm also a labor and delivery nurse.
Speaker 1:So I know the process, you know the procedure.
Speaker 2:I don't know how many times I had to pull that card and say, well, right up the street, I am also a labor and delivery nurse and can I ask you a little bit more questions, Cause I don't understand why you are taking that course with this, particular with my client. You know that kind of thing. The other thing about doulas the Trump card right, Right, right. I keep it in my back pocket. I don't always have to use it, but I do a lot of observing and my job is to make sure, like asking the mom, the birthing person did all your questions get answered? Do you feel safe? Do you feel supported? I don't know how many times I walked in the room and the birthing person tells me, you know what, the fact that you walked in here, they're caring for me better, what? I didn't even say anything. I didn't do anything.
Speaker 1:Everything changed.
Speaker 2:And everything changed. They didn't see me, they didn't come around, but they start showing up. When you showed up and I started to pay attention to that.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, wow, this is crazy. Which leads me to my next question how do you approach supporting Black mothers, specifically considering the disparities and challenges they may face in the health care system? Because we know the statistics for Wisconsin it is like the worst place in the country to be a woman of color having a baby.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's one of the worst states and our outcomes are not necessarily the greatest and the best, but I feel like every time I put my foot down and I go on to the unit and I'm providing care for that client, that's me combating that number, that's me working against that statistic. Now, keep in mind I'm only one. So one of the things I've had the privilege of doing and being has become a doula trainer. So now I get to train other people with the knowledge and the skill set that I have so they can go into the birthing space and be able to provide similar support, if not better, because I like to think in the 22 years I've gotten better.
Speaker 2:It's not easy being an advocate and it's not easy always feeling like you have to fight. So it's really, really important that in this work that we do, we do some self-care, because there's a lot of things that happen, like moral injury when you see something and it's like, or some obstetric violence where you know rights were taken away. A birthing person didn't get to informally consent to something, but they felt that it was important right now and override that birthing person's concern and, as a result, led to moral injury. Something happened.
Speaker 2:You know it doesn't have to necessarily result in the death of a child right but it's an injury that turns and becomes trauma very quickly that can impact that birthing person, that mother's ability to have more children in what ways do you integrate cultural practices and traditions into your doula work, particularly within the black community? So, like I mentioned in the beginning, I am the daughter of Nigerian parents and I was born and raised I didn't include that part. I was born and raised in New York City. I have a husband who's from Louisiana, so I've gotten to learn a lot.
Speaker 1:The dirty dirty yes. Does he still have his accent.
Speaker 2:Only when he's, you know, pressed, you know, but for the most part if he's happy and go lucky, he won't catch it. But there's a moth. It might be a different story. But one of the things that I've come to learn is when I am interacting and I'm meeting my clients and working with them at least in prenatal, because it's very different when you're a nurse, you just get what you get, your assignment.
Speaker 2:But when I have the opportunity to get a client, I like to spend time to get a sense of who they are, what they like, what matters to them, what are their expectations of their birth experience, how is their pregnancy going, who is their support and how can I be of service. So if some of the descriptive nature is I want, like, some mothering where I get to really nurture, then that's what I do. I nurture. If I mean even like setting up the room so that it's welcoming. Okay, well, let's plan that, you know. Did you get your gown that you're going to wear as you welcome this new life? Did you get your hair done? What self-care things are you doing? Talking to the birth partner, what concerns do you have and how can I be of help? How would you like me to support you as well, because you guys are a team.
.jpg)