OuttaDeeBox Podcast

Building Generational Wealth: Otto Gebhardt on Financial Literacy, Real Estate, and Entrepreneurship

• Dee Star • Season 6 • Episode 1

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Have you ever wondered how early financial education can shape your future? Otto Gebhardt of Gebhardt Development joins us to share his journey from growing up in Madison to becoming a successful real estate developer. Otto's story is a testament to the importance of financial literacy, hard work, and living within one's means. We'll uncover the essential principles of compounding wealth and parents' critical role in teaching financial responsibility. Otto's experience offers invaluable lessons on avoiding the pitfalls of generational wealth and ensuring that the next generation is financially savvy and self-sufficient.

Are you interested in real estate investing or entrepreneurship? This episode is packed with Otto's insights on navigating market cycles, the importance of patience, and strategic timing in real estate. Learn from historical financial shifts and gain practical advice on avoiding common investment mistakes. Otto also shares his experiences in the restaurant and real estate development sectors, emphasizing the value of mentorship and hands-on learning. Whether you're a budding entrepreneur or a seasoned investor, Otto's strategies for future planning and market preparedness will inspire and inform your journey.

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Speaker 1:

What's up everybody? This is your host, dee Star here with Otto Gebhardt. Gebhardt Development how you doing man, Good man. Thanks for having me. I do my best. So for the people that don't know you, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, been working in real estate and development. Born and raised in Madison, been working in the business since I was about 13. My dad was in property management. Got a real good education on hard work at a young age, me and my brothers working in the industry and then started real early getting into investing in properties that we could put some sweat equity into manage run flip in the future. And just started there With first offer I think I had on a property. It was about 15. Still remember the address 2677 Milwaukee Street.

Speaker 1:

Is that place still standing today? Yeah, it's just an old house.

Speaker 2:

But at the time I think I still have the offer. I keep everything, I'm a hoarder but it was like 30 grand $25,000 back in the day. It's a long time ago. That's a lot of money. Well, back then, yeah, didn't get it but ended up getting our first property probably a couple years after that a fixer-upper on the east side as well, and then just kept parlaying it from there. I always had a passion for buildings and architecture and again, learning the hard work in the beginning was a positive because I mean, that's kind of the part that's just required that is maybe as fun as the rest of it. But I always just had a passion for buildings, development, interesting development. And then on top of that I kind of always had a knack for investing at a young age and kind of understood the dynamics of the market. We've really been in for the last 50, 60 years of continuing inflation and the dollar devaluing and really being able to get into something you can leverage. Let that grow with the direction they're kind of taking the economy.

Speaker 1:

I was going to go down a rabbit hole when you said the direction that they're putting. We could go all day. I was like you know what?

Speaker 2:

Let's not go there yeah.

Speaker 1:

But you spoke about the foundation. You have a strong foundation and it started way early and it started with that education and sweat equity and things of that nature. So why do you believe that financial literacy should be a core part of school curriculums?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think it's just imperative if you want to become self-sufficient, being in a proper place financially. What is it really? I mean? It's freedom, it's the ability to do what you want to do when you want to do it, how you want to do it. So I think becoming financially sound and self-sufficient as young as possible is a way to be able to do ultimately what you're most apt to be doing, opposed to be doing things that you have to do.

Speaker 1:

So what financial concepts or skills do you think are more important for young people to learn earlier?

Speaker 2:

on. Well, a big one, I would say, is understanding the idea of compounding wealth and compounding debt. You know two opposite ends of the spectrum, but working equally. Whereas if you're going into debt, that tends to be a spiral that you continue to compound. It gets bigger and bigger, the interest gets bigger and bigger and you can't ever get out from underneath it. Whereas compounding wealth, if you can find residual income or different investments that can be earning income while you sleep and whatnot, I mean that can compound in a positive direction. The other way.

Speaker 1:

What role do you think parents should play in their child's financial education, and how can schools support that?

Speaker 2:

I mean I think parents' first job is really to teach to earn for what they want in the future, to be again self-sufficient, to not think of it in a way that you don't want them to be living above their means at a young age, right, and you don't want that to lead to adulthood. If you live within your means, you realize you understand working hard, getting compensated for your work, putting a certain amount away, so to speak, for a rainy day, having dry powder or money set aside is imperative that when something comes along that really makes sense as an investment or otherwise, that you have that ability to do that.

Speaker 1:

With that being said, what does generational wealth mean to you and why is it important?

Speaker 2:

Generational wealth. I mean that can be a double-edged sword. I mean it can be a bad thing. I mean growing up, if too many kids that start off with too much and don't understand the value of work and having to work for something, really, in my mind, are at a huge disadvantage. Have you ever seen that?

Speaker 1:

Oh God, yeah, You've seen. I think we've all seen it, haven't we?

Speaker 2:

Somewhere, people we know, kids we grew up with or something maybe didn't work as hard or didn't save, didn't understand value.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I definitely know some spoiled brats that they're not kids now. Right, you're talking 30 years ago, sure, but I grew up with some guys that well. I knew some kids that were well off and their concept of time and money were very, very different, especially their concept of time, because we think, like man, I could go to work and make some money and they just didn't have a care in the world. As soon as they turned 16, boom, they got given a car they didn't have to work for it.

Speaker 1:

They didn't have to do anything and it was probably a nice car and it was nicer than the teacher's car Brand new Cadillac. This girl gets everything paid for, fully loaded, didn't even have a job. She was 16. You know, she could have been working at McDonald's, subway, anything, never had a job. And she's driving around this brand new Cadillac and it's just like, wow, like why would you give her that and not make her earn it? You know, or not make her work for it or teach her anything about anything?

Speaker 2:

you know it's tough when you have the means, especially to not want to give them things you didn't have. That's the balance right it's a huge balance.

Speaker 2:

And it's like you've got to just walk that tightrope. You know you've got to say no, you've got to put your foot down and you've got to try to get them to understand that you know to get anything of value you need to put hard work and dedication into that or you'll never appreciate it. I mean the kids that the people that grew up with that got whatever they wanted and never had to work for it. They never appreciate it. I mean it's kind of feel bad for them in some ways.

Speaker 1:

It's like you never really had a real appreciation you know, to earn that car, or the money to buy the car, or you know, whatever it may be. My first car was a 1985 Oldsmobile. I bought the car. I earned it, so it was special to me. It was a piece of junk and you love that car. Right, it's a piece of junk but I bought it. You know what I mean. I think had I been given it I wouldn't have loved it, I wouldn't have showed it the respect you know. So I really do understand where you're coming from with that. But, like you said, if you have the means, it's really really hard to say no.

Speaker 1:

It's like hey, can I get a pair of shoes? It's like, yeah, I could get you 100 pairs of shoes, but what did you do to earn that pair of shoes?

Speaker 2:

you know, besides just asking, I'm guilty of it, my wife's guilty of it as far as spoiling our son too much. And every day you're trying to pull it back a little bit and going, hey, no, listen, you go clean the bathrooms, you go downtown and work cleaning this. We were down cleaning turnovers for apartment turnover students.

Speaker 1:

That just happened. It just happened.

Speaker 2:

And I had them down there with some friends cleaning up trash out of the dumpster like I used to do as a kid. Right, and you'll get this, and then you'll get paid, and then you can decide what you Then you got to teach them too. I'm trying to teach my son. Well then you don't get your money and then go spend 100% of it, put 50% away, buy what you want with the other Again, save that, try to get some type of savings. I mean we've-. How old is this one? He's 14. 12, excuse me.

Speaker 1:

He's 12?, yeah, 12. Getting him to try to understand that concept is going to be a struggle.

Speaker 2:

A huge struggle, Well, and kids have changed today. I mean when.

Speaker 1:

I was a kid, it was a, than it is today.

Speaker 2:

So it's always a battle, but it's for their own good, and you've got to teach these life lessons that are going to continue on for the rest of their life.

Speaker 1:

I got girls so that they're even harder to say no to.

Speaker 2:

What age?

Speaker 1:

I got them all ages, so I got a three-year-old, I got a 16-year-old, an 18-year-old, yeah, I got a 21-year-old, and a 22-year-old, it's really tough, I'm assuming, to not spoil the girls.

Speaker 2:

I mean you couldn't do it, I'd be useless.

Speaker 1:

So what strategies do you recommend for families who want to start building wealth for future generations?

Speaker 2:

It's living within your means. It's trying to find, you know, investments that can build on their own. You know, residual income, I mean it's just a huge one. I mean, if you're, you know, working a regular everyday, you know nine to five job is great and we've all done it, and you know the government's going to take its share. Inflation, I mean, I think one reason I'm in the business real estate that I'm in is because I knew at a young age inflation was such a big part of their plan. The fact of the matter is, you know, in this time now, maybe we're losing 20% of the value of your money that you're saving or earning not taxes is being taken away by just inflating the money Exactly.

Speaker 1:

So you know they take 30% out of taxes, 20 in inflation, you're not left with a whole lot at the end of the day, right? So that $30 that you put in, you know a year ago, it's not worth $30 anymore. It's not the same money.

Speaker 2:

And this has been a trend that's been going on, you know, for 100 years. You know, if you look at the value of things, you know 100 years ago to, and you know you look at the value of an ounce of gold back, you'll pick any time. You know 1850, an ounce of gold might've been 30 bucks, but it bought a custom made suit. Let's say, well, today gold's at about 2,400. What's it cost for a customized suit? You know 2,400. It's kind of something that's been a barometer that you can kind of rely on to watch inflation.

Speaker 1:

Wow, and who taught you that?

Speaker 2:

I was kind of self-taught in all that. Really Most of my financial education was all self-taught reading a lot, connecting the dots, not believing everything. You see, a great book that was given to me years ago was the Creature of Jekyll Island, which kind of talks about how the bankers got together in 1913 to create the Federal Reserve which kind of controls our day-to-day life and interest rates and credit. And it's a fascinating book.

Speaker 1:

but you know, and is that the story of how they took us off the gold standard? And create.

Speaker 2:

They've taken us off the gold standard a couple of times. That was one of the times about then. They took us off about 1913. The last time they took us off the gold standard was 1971, when Nixon took us off because the Vietnam War was. They were spending too much money. They didn't have enough gold to back the money which it was at the time, so he had to take us off because they needed the ability to print money freely.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so what tips and tricks? What are the first steps someone should take if they want to start investing in real estate, in real estate.

Speaker 2:

I'd really look at past trends and try to find people that either locally that are doing it well and maybe over a period of time, or find a mentor through books and different reading that you know someone that's done it. I've always enjoyed looking at people that did it from the ground up. I mean, if somebody was given you know $10 million to start, that really isn't the same thing. So if you couldn't find someone locally, if I couldn't find someone locally that kind of you know mirror mimic talk to bounce things off of, I would go just into media and try to find who did this, who started at zero, who and how did they do it? It was always fascinating. It was never as fascinating to me once they got there. It was always more fascinating what they did to get you know how they built up.

Speaker 1:

It was always more fascinating what they did to get you know how they built up the climb. Yeah, what is the biggest mistake you see new investors make and how can they avoid it?

Speaker 2:

Every cycle and I think we're kind of at the cusp of another bubble, like 2008-9 during the housing crash. That was the last one as far as the cycle went. People always make the mistake at the top of the bubble to get in and think things only go one direction. Values only go up, you know, rents only go up, you know. So I can kind of overpay for this property, but rents are going to go up.

Speaker 2:

And I talk to people like locally, that are doing big projects and I'm like how is this project going to work? It doesn't make any sense. And they're like, well, the rents are just going to come back down. And I kind of look at them and go, what if they don't? Right? So you really got to pay attention to cycle because it's always a cycle. I mean real estate, like so many things, is a constant, moving, ebbing cycle. It never goes one direction forever. It's always changing, ebbing and flowing. And what I've seen the biggest mistake to answer your question is people get in kind of near the top you know, and everyone else rode that wave for the last three, four, five years and say, well, I'm just going to buy this four unit, this eight unit, and you know rents are going to only go up and interest rates are going to go down or keep going down or go back down, and I always ask people that I say. So what if interest rates keep going up, your rents go down, your vacancies go up and your expenses go up?

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Then what? Then you've got probably what's coming in the next couple of years here probably a major collapse in the real estate market again.

Speaker 1:

And so when you have that major collapse, what does that do to someone?

Speaker 2:

like you, we get busy. I mean, we play these. This is going to be our third cycle, so we're probably one of the few players, locally at least, that really plays more of the down cycle than the up cycle. I mean, we're kind of bored right now because we've got five development projects put on hold because you can't make the numbers work, the build construction costs don't work for the rents and everything. So it's just and we don't fall into that. Things are going to keep rising rents wise every year. We look kind of for the trends. We're patient. Patience is a big part of this game because real estate is a slow-moving ship, unlike certain things like the stock market. You could wake up tomorrow. It could be down 5,000 points, it could be whatever. Right. The real estate market is like a big tanker. It moves one direction, one direction starts turning and then it turns all at once. So you've got to be patient. Rates have gone up.

Speaker 1:

What we're seeing locally here is we're seeing rent starting to come down, vacancy starting to go up, expenses starting to go up and, as we know, interest rates have doubled from what they were about a year Ago.

Speaker 2:

So you said that rent is starting to come down. Yeah, really, certain sectors, certain sectors, and inevitably That'll happen. That will theoretically happen in all sectors, because what happens is you get a pent-up demand, rents are going up, vacancies are down. People like us get in, start building new units, put them on the market. As long as that keeps working, people keep building, but we always overbuild, right.

Speaker 1:

Because somebody's but they were just saying what, a year or two ago that we didn't have enough buildings? Build, build, build build, build, build.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and in some areas that's correct. Madison was a unique situation because years ago Madison put into a place a law that was 10% inclusionary housing, which meant that every apartment, building, condo, whatever, needed to have 10% affordable in it. And there was no credit for that, there was no subsidy for that. It was just kind of the price of doing business.

Speaker 1:

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Speaker 2:

Section 8. Well, section 8, you have to take by law, which is fine and that's not an issue with anything, that's just a separate program. What they put into place, probably about and I'm just guessing at the timeframe, it was probably about 2003, maybe give or take this Madison-wide. It was just kind of like the price to do business in Madison to build apartments housing is you have to put 10% in, but there's going to be no. There are programs now to do that but people get tax credits and things for different programs. But when Madison did that back in 2003, what it did was it stifled development in Madison. So no one built anything because the numbers just didn't pencil out. So people built in Middleton, even the outskirts, middleton, sun, prairie, verona, et cetera. Well, so that was like I said, I'm guessing about 2003,. That kind of stifled new development. Again, what we talked about, supply and demand coming on creates the ebb and flow of the affordability of housing. So unfortunately it had the opposite effect that they wanted to have on housing prices. Rents and things went up because development was stopped. People were going on the outside so they didn't have any new product coming online.

Speaker 2:

Then jump ahead a few years. It was being challenged in court by I don't know who if it was the Realtors Association or something. And then 2008, 2009 hit. The housing crisis hit, so we went into the recession. The bubble burst Right, so everything fell apart then and credit seized up. No one was building then at all. I mean, we were doing a couple of things and then, shortly after that, the Supreme Court shot down that law of the 10% inclusionary housing. The only reason I bring that part of the big picture up is because we didn't have any building going on for a long period of time that you would have just naturally had, creating supply and creating that ebb and flow in the rents to keep things more affordable. Rents went up during that time because there was no supply. Now there's been a huge demand. There's been a huge demand now since we came out of that which you've been seeing here in the last five, six, seven, eight years. Right, so you're saying we need all these units. A lot of that was pent-up demand from that whole process.

Speaker 1:

From 2008. Going back and prior to.

Speaker 2:

When they put that inclusionary zoning in, we weren't getting the natural product being built into the market. To add to it, new stuff comes on. It's the nice, higher end stuff. The older product becomes more affordable. You didn't have that for 10 years. So where do you think we are now? I think we're peaking the bubble's peaking kind of as it was, in a sense, in 2008, 2009. Cheap easy money I mean taking the rates to zero really stimulated a lot of speculation, a lot of growth. Some needed a lot of it needed, obviously. But I think people are still jumping in with the expectations that rates are coming down, rents will keep going up and I mean for sure I know expenses are going up. I mean across the board. Oh yeah, I mean everything.

Speaker 1:

And promises have been made.

Speaker 2:

Yes, expenses are going through the roof across the board.

Speaker 2:

I mean, and that's probably every industry, specifically ours. We've got insurance, you know, water, sewer, everything is just way, way, way up. And we are seeing a lot of the sectors we're in having a softness now in rents and vacancies. I think it's people have, you know, a point they can only pay. You know, even if they want to, they can only pay. And you're coming out of COVID a couple of years ago where people were getting stimulus checks. They were working from home so they weren't spending money other places. At that point during COVID, somewhere in that neighborhood, we had the highest savings rate we've had in the last 30, 40 years, I mean.

Speaker 1:

but the restaurant industry's tanked, bar industry's tanked, like you said, evan Flo, right, so that is it was what it was. I wanted to ask you what was the best investment that you ever made, and why, and what was the worst?

Speaker 2:

Oh, start with the worst. I got involved in a restaurant deal, speaking of restaurants, with you got hit with a restaurant too. Yeah, I did, I did.

Speaker 1:

I got pulled into a restaurant and lost my shirt.

Speaker 2:

There you go, that's me. So I went into it as the real estate end of it, you know, going. Oh, that's fine. I mean, I had no illusions that I was a restaurateur or anything. I was like I'll be the main, I'll buy the real estate. Basically we'll finance it, we'll get the other partners and they'll run it. They'll do what they need to do. Well, when your partner's all bail on you, all of a sudden you find yourself cleaning the grease trap out and you know the fryers right, and that was more of a prideful thing too. It was like then, once we were into it and everyone bailed on us, I'm gonna make this. Me and my brother were gonna like. You know, we're not gonna let this go down, we're gonna show them where I should have pulled the plug three years earlier. Right, and eventually we just got out of it, sold it, sold the restaurant, but it was, uh, it was probably the least fun, profitable experience.

Speaker 1:

The restaurant business is a separate world Right and you have to have extreme attention to detail and you have to know that industry.

Speaker 2:

Oh, 100%, you have to know, and I knew, I didn't, I knew I didn't. We thought we had people on board that did.

Speaker 1:

Unfortunately, they bailed and then you're kind of stuck and that's not the type of business you want to try to learn on the fly Right, because it's already expensive. Yeah, you know, food costs.

Speaker 2:

Well, I couldn't even imagine today, I mean at the time, and that was God, that was, you know, almost 18 years ago, Right.

Speaker 1:

I couldn't imagine today, but it was terrible then, so you lost your shirt on that Lost my shirt on that so what was the best?

Speaker 2:

Best. You know it's kind of hard because everything that I've done has been a success. It's always been bigger. You know, I'm not saying that's the way it was planned. It was, you know, starting from the one single unit, flipping into two units, flipping into four, I mean. So, just over time there's been many of them.

Speaker 2:

I mean I think most recently, you know, coming out of the last recession, you know we got involved in the East Washington Avenue programs with the Constellation, the Galaxy Festival, foods. Those were obviously the biggest we've done, because everything kind of got bigger as we went and the timing was just right on it. I mean, we were coming out of a recession. The neighborhood and the city, you know, really wanted to get something done when Madison at times can be a city of no. You know we don't like that. Our high-rise used to be three stories. We don't want to go anything over three stories and I'm like I've always been an advocate for density and mixed use and I worked on that for 15 years with the city until they finally came along and agreed to take a chance on it down there on East Washington Avenue and now it's done well, and now they kind of use it as a model.

Speaker 1:

For the longest time they use that. Well, we don't want anything higher than the Capitol. We want you to be able to see the Capitol from every direction, and so they stood behind that for a long, long time.

Speaker 2:

They're still behind that, like all our buildings on East Wash are below that threshold. They're right to the foot, literally, and they're checking. Oh yeah, oh yeah, they take that serious. So that's still in place.

Speaker 1:

How do you sit down and brainstorm?

Speaker 2:

the next move. Well, it depends on what move that is. Right now we're kind of anticipating. Like I said, I think we're going to see a big pullback. So we're getting cash heavy. We liquidated things that we don't see as long-term plays to add to that cash and credit, so that we're in a position that, if things happen as we anticipate that, we're in a position to pick up properties and things that we're interested in at substantial discounts. Right, because they just don't have the money to pay for it, right.

Speaker 1:

I mean, these numbers just don't pencil out for a lot of these projects. No, they got like a 20-year plan. Yeah, not that they're gonna be implementing east side. It's gonna be totally different and I'm really excited about I've seen some of like the drawings of it yeah, uh, it looks really, really cool.

Speaker 2:

They had that a 20-year plan in for east washington avenue for like 30, 30 years and we used to always look at the pictures and go, oh yeah, that looks great, but how is it going to get done, you know. So I mean, I think coming up with the plans are great. I mean a lot of it's just you know it's a cycle, you've got a timing. Timing is everything, especially with development it's you know, you've got to find. You know the credits got to be there, the rates have to be there, the demand has to be there. Construction the rates have to be there, the demand has to be there. Construction costs I mean there's just a lot of moving parts.

Speaker 1:

So what advice would you give to someone starting from scratch? No family wealth or financial knowledge?

Speaker 2:

I would strongly suggest again finding somebody, ideally locally, personally, that is in the business or that you can kind of, you know, work for them for free. You know, be a gopher, just learn how they do what they do. I've had many times where in my office with Darlene, people call and contact us you know younger people about. I've never said no, I mean I'll just, I'll talk to them, I'll run through, I'll give them homework to do. You know, go out and find five properties you think are you know interesting and you think are you know a possible good investment. Bring them to me, we'll scrutinize it. I'll tell you what I think is good and bad about it. But I mean ideally, you just can't really. I don't think you can really learn it in the classroom and you know you also can't learn the cycles. You know that you're in.

Speaker 2:

You've got to be able to look at a bottom line. If a young person came to me and they do, and we look at, say, different properties and kind of analyze them, you know, look at the line item, income, the expenses, each line, figure out what can change and how it can change, what can impact that. You know, federal Reserve raises rates, your mortgage goes up. The city raises property taxes. That goes up. Hopefully rents go up. But you got to look at kind of the whole picture and look at past trends and where you're at today and kind of try to kind of guess where you're going.

Speaker 1:

And it sounds really really confusing.

Speaker 2:

It's really not If I can figure it out. Anyway, if I can do it right, it's simple.

Speaker 1:

I want to say I want to give a special shout out to Steve Meyer.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, big Steve man, good man, great guy, good man, hilarious. We'll see him tonight at Cards.

Speaker 1:

Yep cards. Yep, yeah, he's a great guy. I love Steve man. Steve has been a really really good influence on me ever since I was in seventh or eighth grade. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Great, great guy, yep. I've known him a long time as well.

Speaker 1:

I wanted to ask this question what daily habits or routines do you think contribute most to long-term financial success? I mean just really again keeping an eye on your expenses, your personal expenses, making sure that you're never living above your means.

Speaker 2:

I mean just really again keeping an eye on your expenses, your personal expenses, making sure that you're never living above your means, I mean I think is number one, because I mean that's just once you get into that cycle. Like we talk about compounding debt, I mean when the debt starts compounding. I mean consumer debt right now is at an all-time high of, you know, $1.2 trillion. That's some of the highest interest we've seen ever.

Speaker 1:

Before we go. Is there anything that you want to say, any advice that you want to give the younger generation?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, if you want to get into something like this, I think anything, I mean be passionate about it, go out and find the answers and the people that do it, but don't just kind of go into it half-hearted. I mean, if you really want to do it, put the time in, the energy in, because I mean as good as it can go if you do it right, you know it can go bad, like anything the other direction. So just put the time and energy into it. You know, explore it, connect the dots. I think education and being self-educated. I think in a lot of ways, because nobody can learn the stuff out of a book. You know that you can learn really from people that are truly doing it and regions and sectors are different. So you know, if you read a book, you know that's not going to apply to California real estate In certain areas it is to Wisconsin or Florida or whatever.

Speaker 1:

So there is no shortcut there's no shortcut and be patient.

Speaker 2:

There's no easy way Shortcut no, there's no shortcut. And be patient. I think that's probably the biggest thing I talk to when I'm mentoring people on it is that you know, especially when things are really kind of in the media, you know you hear a lot of hype, you know real estate and everyone's making so much money in real estate which again is a cyclical thing is that you know, be patient. I always tell my people that I'm working with shop, let's explore what's out there, let's look at it, figure it out. If that looks like a good deal, okay, then maybe we look at it and go well, let's just kind of keep our eye on it. It's kind of shopping and waiting for the sale. That's hard. Patience is a big thing because in real estate you make your money when you buy, not when you sell. You ever hear that sell.

Speaker 1:

Well, that is true.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that is true. It is because you got-.

Speaker 1:

Because if the numbers don't work-, correct, if they didn't work from the beginning, they'll never work. Yeah, yeah. And you don't even know if you can afford this thing.

Speaker 2:

Right, you know if certain things go take us, you know positive direction or negative direction and sort of, just like you know big picture risk management.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. What do you think about this beautiful office that Husky Homes has provided us to do this interview? Beautiful Shout out to Jonathan Gaspero.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, jonathan, appreciate it, man, he is such a nice guy. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Him and his team said you know what you can do the interview here. We would love to sponsor this episode. So thank you, thank you, a thousand thank yous to Husky Homes, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, husky Homes. It's very nice. I got a table just like this in Mexico. Yeah, yeah, it's very similar.

Speaker 1:

I got to get down there to Mexico man, you come down so much stuff is going on down there, yep. Big Steve told me something that y'all potentially might have going on down there.

Speaker 2:

Man, I don't know if you're in it. Well, he's got a buddy down there, that's got some property.

Speaker 1:

He's got a buddy yeah.

Speaker 2:

Steve's got buddies all over the place with property and projects.

Speaker 1:

He's saying he's like man I got this resort that he's working on you know, and he's like I'll take you down there, you can come see. And he's like I've been down there yeah.

Speaker 2:

He said it's legit. I was talking to him on the phone last time we were down there. We never had a chance to meet up, but we'll probably meet up next time.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah, well, otto, thank you so much for coming and stopping by.

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